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Author Topic: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet  (Read 532 times)

Offline Hunt Master

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Offline sundowner

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2017, 01:48:19 PM »
Thanks HM great article .  ##$%#1118
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Offline Madgomer

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2017, 05:50:45 PM »
I don't know guys, on at least two out of three "myths" they attempt to claim "A" or "B" is always correct when there are enough variables in play that in a given situation either could be true.  Good conversation material, but technically not very accurate (especially the crosswind bit).  But hey, it's always fun to have a debate on this stuff, and usually everyone comes away with some new knowledge. If I can get the Vortex marketing guys who wrote this to buy me a beer or three I'll be happy to help him edit his next article (yeah I know, the marketing folks don't wanna hang with the engineers, it's bad for their rep)    @--0--0105
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Offline yari

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2017, 06:21:40 PM »
mad-i agree, but number 3 is definitely not what i believed to be true. i thought bigger tube = more light gathering 
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Offline MI_Bowhunter

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2017, 05:05:37 AM »
mad-i agree, but number 3 is definitely not what i believed to be true. i thought bigger tube = more light gathering
Per my understanding, the larger the objective the more light is gathered, not necessarily the larger tube.

I can also attest, based on my experience with photographic lenses, the quality of the lens coatings plays a huge role in light transmission as well.
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Offline Dutch-Hunter

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2017, 05:20:15 AM »
I may be a little rusty on replying. But he we go.

Wind! All wind has a great effect on trajectory travel. From muzzle to point of impact or expelled lateral energy. Remember once the pill leaves the tube you have no control over it. At long ranges the pill may different wind effects.

Optic height, or better defined as sight line vs bore line. This is irrelevant in most shooting instances after the zero range is established. Higher scope mounting is necessary with the larger diameter forebell housing ie the objective lens.

Larger tubes and light transmission. In my opinion larger tubes always give you a larger target view. They also are much easier to use in low light conditions. Larger diameter tubes also always cost more. From what Vortex said in their last reply in the article their tubes are the same on the inside with little or no difference in light transmission. OOPS! Why do they charge more for the big tubes?
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Offline MI_Bowhunter

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2017, 05:48:22 AM »


From what Vortex said in their last reply in the article their tubes are the same on the inside with little or no difference in light transmission. OOPS! Why do they charge more for the big tubes?


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Offline BLUETOE

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2017, 06:31:52 AM »
Good info. I thought bigger scope more light transmission guess I was wrong so I can stick with my 40 mm scopes and not spend big money LOL!!! I knew the height of the scope was wrong because I hunt in Pa and all the old timers had a Remington 760 (30.06) with see through mounts on them and they hit what they were aiming at out to 300 yds LOL!!! Thanks for the post.
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Offline Dutch-Hunter

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2017, 07:06:21 AM »


From what Vortex said in their last reply in the article their tubes are the same on the inside with little or no difference in light transmission. OOPS! Why do they charge more for the big tubes?


What What!?!?!?!




Quote from article replies by Vortex...

"Tube Diameter A very key element of riflescope mechanics is completely missed in your argument. The external scope tube has ***Absolutely nothing to do*** with light transmission at all. Inside of that external scope tube is an erector system which houses the optical train for the riflescope. This is where the lenses lie, and everything inside the inner erector system, along with the other lenses in the scope, have ***Everything*** to do with light transmission, optical quality, and anything else to do with the image you see through the scope. Simply increasing the diameter of the external scope tube will do absolutely nothing for your light transmission if all else inside is kept the same. Light transmission, and other optical qualities, are determined entirely by optical design spacing of the lenses, curvature of the lenses, chemical compounds of glass used, and coatings used on the lenses to name a few." This makes good sense and is very true.

I had to reread this a couple of times to make sure I was comprehending it correctly.
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Offline MI_Bowhunter

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2017, 10:22:53 AM »
I do not read it to explicitly say that they use the same inner tube with multiple sized exterior tubes.....though it also does not explicity say that they don't...

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Offline Madgomer

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2017, 05:01:25 PM »
So if they choose to use the same inner erector system for a small tube and a large tube, it certainly makes sense that they'll be able to support a wider range of adjustability inside that larger tube, but on the flip side, they could (I think) also scale up that inner erector system, keep the same range of adjustability as the smaller tube, but benefit from better light transmission depending on what they do with the lenses.  Again, lots of potential variables in play, so it's tough to make an "always" statement when only one of those variables is being discussed.

And yeah Dutch, they kinda stepped in a big old squishy cowpie of their own making by saying that tube size didn't matter, given the industry trends on pricing.
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Offline yari

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2017, 08:55:30 PM »
i figured this would be a good dialog on #3. the other two were very 'soft articles'. the 10% tube size difference seems significant, but vortex says it isn't. when i'm not sure, i will believe the manufacturer. why would they lie? if they wanted to make more money, they would push buyers to the more expensive larger tube scopes. right?

just my 2 cents. it's like a seed company that says 2 lbs per acre is optimal and someone says it should be 5 lbs per acre. really? a seed company that would under sell it's product? that just doesn't make sense. i'm in sales. you never under sell 
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Offline BoBallistic

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 07:35:12 AM »
I have been studying the post for several days now and read and re-read the linked article more than a few times....have even lost sleep over it...just kidding there, the knee thing is causing that...LOL

I will add my 2 cents worth here...

No1 - Wind - yes I agree with the fact that the wind impact on the bullet when it first comes out of the barrel is greater than what happens down range....it took me years and years to grasp that fact after guys in Atlanta and here in TN told me that over and over again...the BR gurus set up wind flags every 25 yards and tell me that about the wind....wondering if an object full of energy and velocity can be impacted when it first comes out of the barrel is impacted by the wind rather than down range when it starts to slow down and drop...just wondering..having an engineering back ground in both Mechanical and Electrical fields make me wonder and everything thing has to be proven to me...just my nature I guess...

No2  - Scope Height....for years I have known this....if you do the math and check your ballistic and run them through any computer program and change the height from the standard 1.5" to 2.0" or even 1.0" you will find that it doesn't matter for longer range....Years ago I bought into this theory but over the years have come to the conclusion that you need the set up to fit you and your profile...Dutch and PA does a lot longer range shooting than I do and you can go to the bank of their comments.....

No3 Scope Diameter - While here in America we have grown up on 1" tube diameter scope, I remember my first Leupold 30mm tube way back in the 80's then getting me a Zeiss 4X with a 30mm Tube and thought wow, this is great. better field of view at the lowest power....worked for me...Normally as  hunter, I keep my scope on the lowest power setting that the scope has to offer anyway. That makes a big difference in light gathering at the lowest power the scope has to offer....but when you turn up the power ring of the scope all of that goes away or is proportional and relative to the object being focus on....Having said all of that, when you are in the woods hunting, what power do you keep your scope on?? I keep my on the lowest power of the scope. Now if I am hunting over and open field where you can see 500 yards or so, then I will up the power setting, after daylight, to one or two power more than the scope minimum power...just depends on the terrain and where you are hunting at...

If scope manufacturers state that there is no difference between the 30mm and the 1 inch tube diameters of scope in light gathering ability then why do they offer both a 1" and 30mm tube diameter scopes?? why not just produce that 1 inch tube and drop or never make the 30mm tubes.....

The 34mm and 35mm tubes are heavy and think at a lower power they would offer some value, don't have one so I would not know....but did get a chance about 4 or 5 years ago to put a 34mm Razor in my hand and notice how heavy it was...thinking that this scope would make a great bench rest rifle scope but not for hunting where you got to have a light, fast handling combo rifle and scope in order to get on a Deer or Elk or critter that you are hunting....so in my hunting mind and way of thinking, the 34 and 35mm tube size are out...maybe on a 338 Lapua or something like that where you are likely to be paper punching at 1000 yards...but for my hunting rifles, cannot see anything past a 30mm as the largest tube there is....so I would agree that the larger tube size will do nothing for me as a hunter goes, but I go back to the question on why would manufacturers offer these larger diameters scopes if not for some cost effective reason?? I am open for debate on this area....but I'm looking at it from a hunting aspect....

I'm a big fan of all Vortex Products, I have plenty of Crossfire II scope, Viper Scopes and Binoculars, Lord knows how many Cant Level of Vortex I own, getting them in every week it seems like, but they do make a very good product for the money and their guarantee is right up there with Leupold's...so what is not like about them.....but I also do my own thinking and figuring things out!! Like the wind, I remember a thread here talking about out west Antelope hunting and reading and listening to member talk about what to take and the distances they will likely face I just happen to mention that the wind out there blows all the time!! I remember my own Antelope hunt were I had to put the crosshairs in blue sky ahead of the Antelope due to the wind..I referred to my dope sheet taped to my Sauer 200 in 25-06! Wow good shoots at 318 and 340 yards in 22 mph winds!! But I am sure that other here have shot in winds much higher than that so I am just referring to my own experience....

Good Comment Mad....Manufacturers are in this business to make money so any thing they can do to save money and to use the same system in 30mm (or larger tubes) as they do in their 1 inch tube, they will do.....scope manufacturing is sort of like making sausage, you like the way it looks and taste but you certainly don't want to see them make it....it is a mess and the parts they use on one line of scopes they use on other lines as well....

I am sure that there are more than three things you can debunked based on your own experience......

Good thread and good post...thanks......







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Offline Madgomer

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Re: Debunked Three Shooting Myths You Learned On The Internet
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 05:57:15 PM »
Bo,
On Number 1 you just gotta dust off your old high school or college physics books & go to the early chapters on vectors & velocity equations.  If a crosswind imparts a sideways velocity vector at the muzzle, that vector is mostly there all the way to the target, that's a long way to act vs. the same vector coming into play only as you go further downrange.  Granted, as you go downrange your forward velocity is falling off, so that same sideways velocity vector can create a bigger error per foot traveled, but if it's in play for let's say 100 yards instead of just the last 20, that muzzle effect is going to be much greater.
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