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Author Topic: 270 by chuck hawks  (Read 5251 times)

Offline pa deerslayer

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270 by chuck hawks
« on: December 22, 2010, 05:51:30 PM »
on chuck hawks rifle cartridge page he describes the 277 130 grain pill as in his opinion the best long range,and best standard round long range round ever developed. He goes on to tell this is the reason roy weatherby developed his 270 weatherby magnum first,and further touched on the relatively new 270 wsm as being the top seller in winchesters line of wsms.the 270 spent 20 yearsw atop nthe heap before roys introduction,and it was another 20 years before gunmakers began introducing belted magnums.
    Well let me say I agree.

Offline hawghunter65

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2010, 06:38:30 PM »
deer size game or bigger?

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Offline pa deerslayer

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2010, 06:45:33 PM »
hawghunter65,no the 270 will handle any game in north america short of large brown bears,chucks statements were on the 270 caliber and the 130 grain pill,and it being the standard long range round that still even today has no match
  Now that being said,which I agree with,even a standard 270 with 160s or nosler 160 grain partitions is better for elk than a 130 grain pill,and the 270w2sm,and 270 weatherby magnum with the heavier pills  have greater terminal
 performance.

Offline pa deerslayer

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2010, 06:52:45 PM »
now if you are asking what size game should be taken with 130 grain pills let me say that personally I believe that mule deer would be the biggest,thats game up to 400 or so pounds,I would choose 160 for elk
 I use 150s in my charles daly in 30-06 for deer,and 130s in all 5 of my 270s
 yes when deer season arrives I set all 6 rifles out then ponder which one I usually hunt with 2 each day,one in the morning and another in the afternoon,I use them all,dont wany any of the kids mad at me.ha ha ha.

Offline 270mag

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2011, 04:00:50 PM »
  Have to agree with Chuck, I shoot a Weatherby 270 mag with 130 gr pill, very happy with it from day one...I would'nt part with this rifle for anything..

Offline BoBallistic

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2011, 10:02:09 AM »
I have a book on Weatherby's, about the man himself, the calibers and what he was thinking. Good read.

The 270 Wea Mag was the first Weatherby caliber produced. Roy was hunting out West and was using a 270 Winchester and it just did not have enough knock down at the ranges he wanted. I have two of them. One is a Mark V and the other in a Ruger No.1B. Both are good shooters. The Mark V loves 140 gn, while the Ruger No.1B loves the 130 gn.

I hunted elk for 19 times and for 13 of those times have rifle hunted (4 archery and 2 muzzle loader hunts) and of those 13 times I have never used anything lighter than a 7mm Rem Mag on Elk. Even though a 160 gn partition in 270 Wea Mag or 270 WSM would be good medicine for Elk and I would hesitate in recommending it to take. It's just a personal choice. I sort have of settled in on a 300 Win Mag using a 180 gn Barnes TSX or Speer Trophy Bonded for Elk. What it boils down to is the most accurate round for me at the time. I want to go on a couple of more Elk hunting trips and the 270 WSM with a 150 gn Accubond would be right there in the mix along with the 270 Wea Mag. I would love to take a Elk with my Ruger #1B...

You do realize the 270 Win came out in 1925 as a standard Winchester round. Wow that round is older than PA or me...LOL...it's hard to beat a classic. My first real deer rifle that I bought myself as a college graduation present with my first or second paycheck was a 270 Win in a Winchester Model 70A and I still have it today. About 10 years ago found the magic bullet and powder combination for it and it shoots dime groups. Even though I love 308 for my deer rifle under 200 yards down here in the south, the 270 or 280 would be my choice for a bean field rifle using the 130 or 140 gn bullets.

 

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Offline sirrobbinhood

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2011, 01:42:40 PM »
Even though I love 308 for my deer rifle under 200 yards down here in the south, the 270 or 280 would be my choice for a bean field rifle using the 130 or 140 gn bullets.


Bo why would you only recommend your .308 out to 200 yards?  I know they are more capable and you shooting skills are past par at that range.  I know they posses the killing power out far beyond that range and I am not questioning that you know that too.  I was just wondering why you would use something different out past 200 yards?  I have a 30-06 that shoots very well at distance and I feel comfortable shooting my .308 very far, although for deer I would keep 300 and in...unless conditions were perfect I may shoot farther...that would all depend on my position and all the external ballistics that go into a shot that far.  I enjoy reading your threads and I was just wondering why you would use a different rifle for the beanfield hunt? 
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Offline BoBallistic

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2011, 10:41:43 AM »
Sir Robin - Thank for the question. I agree with you. If I had to chose a caliber for a beanfield rifle down here in the South, I would not go with my beloved 308 for my first choice. You are right in saying a 270 or 280 would be a better choice. Because a beanfield field would be more than a 200 yards and maybe out to as much as 600 yds. I have a 7mm Rem Mag that has 10 twist that shoot dime groups at 200 yds using 140 gns bullets. 270 WSM or 270 Wea would be good choices too....even 25-06 Rem or 257 Wea would be better.

I know a 308 is very lethal way past 500 yards but after 200 to 250 yards the bullet drop becomes an issue. At 500 yds a 165 gn bullet will drop somewhere around 50 inches if sighted in at 200 yards and most than that if sighted in at 100 yds. I sight my 308, 7mm-08, 243's size cases in at 100 yds, the 30-06 size cases including the 270 and 280 at 200 yards and my magnums size cases at 300 yards. But that is just something I have standardized on over the years. And you are right if conditions are right with no wind, no cold front blowing in, Humidity is pretty low and the barometric press is stable then yes I would maybe take a 300 yd shot, but only if Condition is right.

My 308 size cases rifles are set up with a short heavy barrel 20", 1.5-6X or 2-7X scopes for thick cover, and if of those 1 in a 100 shots come up with a big buck standing out 200 to 250 all you have to do is remember lucky 7. Adjust you scope 7 clicks up with a 308 and you will be dead on at 200 if not you will be darn close.

OK, now I am going to go through my thought process on setting up a beanfield gun. You are going to need more that a good rifle and scope. You will need a good spotter scope, a 1200 yard rangefinder and some very good 10X binoculars. My rangefinder is Lecia, my spotter is Swarovski and my binoculars are either Zeiss or Swarovski. My scope would be Zeiss Conquest with Rapid Z1000. My bases and rings are Ken Farrell or Badger Ordinance - Steel of course. 

My caliber of choice would be a 270 Wea, has been for years, now 270 WSM or 7mm Rem Mag. using 130 of 140 Berger VLD bullet. My rifle would be a custom bolt action in one of these calibers with a 26" or 27" Shilen or Krieger, Bartlin barrels, with 10 twist. Jewell trigger, Stiller action...for starters or for fun get you a Savage 12F Class with it's 30 barrel! that would be some fun...Then I woke up...

And of course practice at those distances - a lot! But when you get into the woods hunting, you never know when or where a monster buck will step out. Sure a 308 will do the job, easily but for a beanfield gun, you want one that is very flat shooting so it doesn't drop 50" at 500 yds...

Shooting long distances is not very hard but you understand to do so you have to get to know your round and you cannot change it. Even as much as going from a 130 to 140 gn will change dramatically down at 400 yards...and the most importand is to practice and shoot a lot.....

Starting middle of next month, I will start shooting for Safari 2011...shooting from 200 yds to 600 yds using a 300 WSM and 300 Win Mag....I have 6 boxes of 180 Gn Barnes TSX ready to reload actually starting today....

PS - I have a rare Savage 30-06 24" Heavy Barrel...I know it will shoot great and I am still working on that magic load, now that would be a good beanfield rifle too! As you suggested...



 

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Offline sirrobbinhood

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2011, 11:00:07 AM »
Hey thanks, I consider my .308 my all purpose rifle...I shoot long range comps with it and I have taken it hunting although I have yet to get anything with it.  This is the first year I have really ever used a rifle to hunt.  Being overseas and up in New Jersey where you can't hunt with them limited me once I got back in to hunting.  I use a Leupold 3.5-10X Mark 4 Tact scope with BDC turrets in 1 moa Ele and 1/2 moa wind.  I practice to every distance as close as I can and I record every shot that goes through the thing.  That is why I would go with my .308 for the beanfield shots and of course a range finder or set out range markers if the field is clear enough.  I have never shot anything else besides 7.62x39 and 5.56 rifles...well those and the .50 of course! My buddy shoots a 25-06 and does quite well with it and I have another friend who shot the 25-06 one time and never recovered his deer and sold it and went with the 30-06 for deer.  I guess, for me, when it all comes down to it whatever rifle you shoot best would be the best rifle to shoot!  HAHAHA

PA or Bo what is the Max effective range for the 270?  How does it compare to say 30 cal loads (at least 168 gr and up) as far as trajectory and the sort?  Does the heavier round of a 30 cal present less drift than the lighter 130 gr of the 270 or does the Muzz Velocity negate this problem (at least to reasonable deer killing ranges say 300 yards and in)?  I want to try and find a 7mm or perhaps a 270 to start shooting once I get back in to a little better financial situation (actually once I get free and clear from college and get a career job again).  I also want to get a lighter hunting rifle for my soon to be wife, something around the .243 size.   
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Offline BoBallistic

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2011, 06:07:37 PM »
Sir Robin - Effective range - Now that is a loaded question. If you only go by ballistic information, both the 30-06 and 270 are very very close, one bullet is .277 and the other bullet is .308....and obvious the .277 bullet has a better ballistic coefficient than the 30-06 and the 280 Rem (7mm)(.284) as a family of bullets has the best overall ballistic coefficients. Some 30-06 bullets and some .277 bullets do have higher ballistic coefficients, but as a family of bullets though all the bullet weights in the .284 family none is higher. Remember that ballistic coeffiecents or every bullet changes based of velocity. Sometimes a bullet muzzle velocty is not the best ballistic coeffiecent until it slows downrange.

Then we get into some personal limits. My personal limits for deer is when a bullet's energy reaches a 1000 ft lbs of energy that is my personal limit of that particular round. Anything below that is not for me. But that is just me. In one of my older Sierra Reloading Manuals, it states that NATO research shows that it only took a 106 ft lbs of energy to bring down a human. If you go buy that, then every centerfire bullet has that energy out to some distance. But I think we as hunters owe it to the game we are hunting to dispatch it as ethically as possible and that where it gets personal. My minimum for Deer/Antelope/Mule Deer/Goats is 1000 ft lbs of energy and for Elk/Moose it is 2000 lbs. Find a old copy of a Taylor Index. it takes the bullet energy and computes it into a BMI (body mass index) for game and it gives you a guideline on what Taylor thinks you should use on each animal.

I rather be able to point and shoot at an animal instead of "lobbing" a round in. Any good ballistic can give you the trajectory of a 308 using a 165 or 168 gn hunting round, say something like a Barnes TSX or a Sierra GameKing, and compare it to a 270 Wea Mag using a 130 gn Partition. Say you are shooting at 500 yds on a whitetail deer. With the 270 Wea Mag sighted in 200 yds the bullet drops, it drops around 31 inches where as a 308 165 will drop around 50 inches. At 500 yards both bullets energies are plenty for any White Tail Deer. At 31 inches then you barely hold it over the deer back, with the 308 you have to hold over 20 more inches more than the 270 Wea Mag.

You on the other hand have had probably more experience at shooting long distances than any other person here besides PA. I shoot 200 and 300 yards and in and anaylize every shot. The fartherest Elk I have shot has been 234, the Antelope was 318 and 340 in 22 mph crosswinds and the Impala I shot over in South Africa was 259 yds. Over in Africa you don't take long shots! if you wound a animal and they don't find it you still have to pay the trophy fee! Ouch. It cost me $950 for a Blue Wildebeest that we could not find. And I shot him at 80 yards. He went down like a ton of bricks. The PH went to get the truck and when he got close to the Wildebeest it got up and ran off like it never was touched! we found tons of blood but never found him. So I am going back to get one of those suckers this year.

I am and always be a Hunter but I know the importance of practicing for "that" shot. As I have gotten older I enjoy target shooting instead of play golf. Even though golf would be better for me and I am not sure which is more expensive....LOL...both are expensive. One thing I do is to set up 3 targets at 100 yds, 50 yds and 200 yds and shoot one shot into each target aiming directly at the bulls eye to see where each bullet hit on each target. I think every hunter ought to do this because he/she can get the trajectory in the mind's eye.

The effective range of either the 270 Win (we should include the 280 also) and/or the 30-06 is up to the shooter and his/her ability and equipment and personal perferences. For me, I have short range hunting rifles set up, medium range hunting rifles set up and long range hunting rifles set up. When I went to this private farm this year I could have shot deer 300 to 400 yards or 10 yards away. just depends on what part I hunt is to which rifle I take with me for that particular hunt. I have three rifles type with me in the truck just in case...

 

 

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Offline pa deerslayer

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2011, 06:36:10 PM »
bo,I have to disagree with you on the 25-06 being a good bean field rifle,the 25-06 does not have enough energy for shots much beyond 450 yds.
  I used one for over a decade,and shot many deer and everyone above 400 yds none of the pills exited,the 270 is good to about 500 for exit wounds,that is why in a previous post I was talking about setting up a 270 wsm for long range shots out to 600 yds.

Offline pa deerslayer

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2011, 08:10:00 PM »
to answer your question the 270 is in no way limited to 300 and in shots,the only real advantage of 30 caliber rounds over the 270 is kenetic energy beyond 300 yds,as long as their muzzle velocities are comparable to the 270
  In the evnet that they are their killing power is elevated beyond that of the 270 for that reason. being a ballistics expert I can tell you most agree that a minimum of 1100 pounds of kenetic energy at point of impact is needed for a pass thru on whitetail,this limit is reached by a 270 at about 500 yds,there are a limited number of calibers that will outperform these numbers,but most all come with a heavy price,RECOIL,but this can be overcome with muzzle brakes etc
  I know kens favorite beanfield rifle at one time was the 280 ackerly improved.there are many people I know who are fully capable of 500 yd shots,and they choose the heavy ultra mags for this reson so the kenetic energy numbers are well above 1500 pounds even at 500 yds.all these considerations are fine and should be taken,but the ultimate killer of any game is bullet placement,and depending on the size of game bullet design,you a thin skinned pill designed for whitetails that has fast expansion used on a giant elk is stupid,and usually results in wounded lost animals.
  look at the ballistics of the ackerly calibers,the 280 has better ballistics with 140 grain pills than a 270 with 130s.

Offline pa deerslayer

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2011, 08:15:18 PM »
one other thing,if your soon to be wife is a capable shooter I would not get her a 243,a 25-06,or 7mm08,and if she can shoot it a 270 would be much better choices.

Offline pa deerslayer

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2011, 08:28:11 PM »
hey bo I thought I was the only hunter in the world who took atleast 2 rifles hunting everyday,lol

Offline BoBallistic

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Re: 270 by chuck hawks
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2011, 08:20:41 PM »
PA - I usually take at least 6 with me sometimes 8 just depends on where I hunt...hahahaha....ask split toe or deerhead! I take a short range and back up, 2 medium range rifles and two back ups! hahaha and 1 long range and one ultra long range...hahahaha...

No we are both crazy! hahahaha
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