TalkHunting Community

Tools of the Trade => Archery => Topic started by: Thundering Lion on August 03, 2017, 04:11:35 PM

Title: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 03, 2017, 04:11:35 PM
Been 20 years since I shot a bow/hunted.  Getting back into this now at 60 years old.  Purchased a used Mission Craze for a real good price.  Like the bow.  Have it set at 30" draw and 62#  Using a Tru-Fire caliper release and a QAD HDX drop release.  I shoot right handed.

Been trying to paper tune it after getting my form back for the last week.  Have some Carbon Express 6075's (31") and some Beeman 340 (30") arrows, both with 100 grain field tips, shooting at bag target.  I paper tuned it at 8 feet and got it shooting bullet holes.  Then sighted at 10 yards.  Then back out to 20 yards. I can see my arrows fishtailing pretty wildly.  So went back to paper tuning.  I shot both arrows (using the same arrow each time) with each brand.  At nine yards, I get both brands of arrows flying with the nock low and right.  At five yards, I get slightly right nocks and level.  At 8 feet, bullet holes with both, and at point blank, less than 2 feet, I get bullet holes.  Not sure how to proceed.  I am thinking I need to re-paper tune at 9 or ten yards.  Getting frustrated,  any insight would be appreciated.

I used to shoot an Oneida with 2117 Eastons back in the day, tab shooter with an spring loaded rest.  There is a lot I don't know about modern bows and how to set them up.  I have checked the cam timing, all good. I squared up the cams (top was leaning left).  Looking for any opinions on how best to proceed.  Thanks for any input. 
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 03, 2017, 06:15:21 PM
Thundering Lion - First of all Welcome to Talk Hunting...You live in SW Missouri, great deer state...glad you just back into hunting, you will find that everything has changed in the last 20 years, mostly for the best...Sounds like you are all set up for the hunt. Deerhead is the resident TH Champion, he is also a member of our GA Hunt Club, near Macon, GA....I still have my old PSE Mach Flite 4 with it's 4" overdraw with no arrow drop release when I got measure for mine in the late 80's...LOL...I now use a Stryker and PSE TAC15i crossbows.....boy those things are accurate...I still have all of my bows since I was a kid of 12 years

Not sure if I can help you, but maybe someone here will point you in the right direction....I would suggest that you find yourself a good local archery shop and talk to them about your problem...I am scratching my head trying to figure out what is giving you the results you are getting with the Mission...humm...worst case you might want to take it back to where you bought it or contract the original owner of the bow and talk to him to see what has happen to it?? Worst case you send it back to the factory....

But let us all know what you find the problem is so everyone here can be aware of the potential problems....

Welcome aboard....Bo
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 03, 2017, 06:43:13 PM
Hey T. Lion - welcome to TH!   It's been a while since I paper tuned, so bear with me.  The single cam bow I've been shooting the last 15-20 years has never given me any issues, but the High Country I started with was a challenge, never really felt I had the tuning where it needed to be on that one.

Gotta state a couple of obvious things - not trying to insult you, but I know I'm struggling to recall all of the little details that make a huge difference & find myself re-learning a lot these days.  As you're paper tuning, are your shafts bare or fletched?  The draw & arrow length are getting up there, are you sure you have enough spine in your shafts, particularly if that bow has aggressive cams? I shoot Beeman ICS 400's in mine, with shafts that are about 29.5", similar poundage, but relatively mild cam. Are you sure you don't have any vane interference with cables & the rest?  Friend of mine had a weird issue with a drop-away rest in which apparently it bounced & sometimes came back up high enough to kick the nock end).  How's your center shot adjustment on the rest?  Biggest & best for last: Your grip - are you giving that a lot of deliberate attention to make sure it's consistent and not resulting in torque on the riser during the shot?  This is the single biggest thing that I have to concentrate on when I pick up the bow after a layoff, and can cause fishtailing (among other things).  All of that stuff aside, I lean to Bo's advice & recommend taking it in to a pro shop & having them watch you shoot a few shafts - more than likely it's an easy fix, just not always easy to narrow down what the fix needs to be.  If you're shooting with short vanes, you can mitigate some of the fishtailing by moving up to a longer vane like a 4", but you lose some velocity, and it's really only a partial bandaid for the problem rather than a fix.  HM & some of the other bow nuts on here will probably have plenty of good wisdom to offer.
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 03, 2017, 11:14:06 PM
Gotta state a couple of obvious things - not trying to insult you

Thanks for the responses.  Trust me, I know what I am and I also know what I am not!  Never going to be offended by people offering to help with nothing to gain!  I appreciate the time! 

I am not sure what "center shot adjustment on the rest" means.  This is all new to me. Does this refer to moving the rest farther or closer to the riser?  I have been shooting 2" vanes and I shoot with a wrist strap and an open hand.  This is how I have always shot my bows.  I am conscience of bow torque when I am aiming, and also I am an avid pistol shooter (Ruger Redhawk shooting offhand at 100 yards, I am deadly) so I do understand trigger control and try to use the same mindset with my release, squeeze, don't yank!  That's just for background  - the more someone knows, the better they can help!  :)  I have a great rest and I did ask about bounce back at the pro-shop where I made the purchase. He assured me this model would have no such issue.  I am not seeing any signs of interference on my fletching, but I could be misreading that.  Some vanes have a couple of waves in them, kinda random, and I put some steam on them to flatten them out again.  Oh, and I don't know what an aggressive cam would be.  Nothing to compare. My old Oneida doesn't have cams or wheels, and the bows previous only had wheels!  Shooting fletched arrows for now anyway to paper tune.

The pro-shop is about 30 miles away, so I will try to get up there over the next day or so and see what kind of help I can get.  I will be happy to report here in case someone else may benefit from it in at some point.

And Bo, I purchased the land right next door to my house, and my trail cameras have revealed some very nicely developing bucks!  Very excited!! MO is a great state for deer hunting!!

Thanks again boys!  I really do appreciate your time, effort and willingness to help!
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 04:36:55 AM
Welcome aboard
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 06:04:38 AM
Welcome to talkhunting. Not a bow hunter myself so have no good advice to offer you
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 06:41:31 AM
I would only paper tune it up close, a couple yards. You will be runnng in circles if you try to paper tune at 10 yards or more.

Not to come across the wrong way but it could be you. No matter how good you were, when you take a break you lose some of the "muscle memory" and it takes a while to get that good form back. You need to make sure you have that form back else paper tuning is useless.  I've been working at getting back to shooting a verticle bow after a few years break and I see this in myself. Using a video camera or having someone watch you shoot can help find problems you might not know you have.

An arrow is not a bullet and even with the best tuned bow it flexes and bends all over the place.

Spine of the arrow is important but there are also some subtlties to it that many are not aware of.. There is usuelly a weak side and a strong side to an arrow.  This was an issue more so with alum/wood than carbon but it still exists to some degree. If you have one arrow that seems to fly different try rotating the nock so it indexes with another vane. Sometimes this will correct it.

Another is tip weight.  Going too light relative to the arrow weight can cause some erratic flight and issues with accuracy. You need some weight out front for arrows to fly stable.

I've had bow/arrow combinations in the past that just would not paper tune well but still shot great groups.  And I have also had the opposite. Technology keeps getting better but there is still a lot of varables at play.

They make a tool to verify center shot. It's about a 12" L shaped wire with an adjustable base at the straight end and a small washer on the smaller end of the L. You put the base on a flat part of the risor near the rest. Rotating the L back towards the string move the washer until it lines up with the string. Now nock and arrow and rotate the tool  out in front of the bow. The washer sbould also now line up with the center of the arrow if the center shot is setup correctly. You can adjust by moving the rest in or out from the risor. Not all bows shoot the best at absolute center but it will give you a point of reference to start.
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 07:04:00 AM
Thanks for the input MI_B!  I have considered that it's me, and although I am very aware of MOST things, I could very easily be missing something simple.  I think that's perhaps the best reason for shooting in front of a pro and get some critique.  Thanks for the idea of heavier tips, I have not thought of that and I in fact do have some 125gn in my gear box.  Will give that a try today!  I know arrows flex when shot, but trust me on this, these are fishing tailing wildly!  Much worse that before I did this paper tune.  LOL about muscle memory, I did not lose just the memory, I lost some muscle!  LOL  My front shoulder is trashed and I feel some popping (like a tendon) that concerns me a bit!  It could very well be me compensating for a pain or a pinch!
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 09:04:47 AM
Welcome to TH. It's never too late to get back to hunting or shooting Good luck with both.
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 09:07:29 AM
Here is something else.. stating the obvious that many shooters overlook. The key to bow hunting is consistent arrow placement. if you can hit the same spot, consistently, from different ranges, you will kill deer. For years, I got deeply involved in trying to setup my bow perfectly. Now, i get the basics as close as I can then shoot, shoot, shoot. My Mathews doesn't paper tune all that great but I can hit what I shoot at.

Stop chasing ghosts. you can fine tune forever and never get it right. Start shooting....  The arrow will eventually start going where you want it to...

PS... lower your poundage if possible...  just like a rifle, some arrow / bow combinations work best at faster or slower speeds. its also a lot easier on a bad shoulder, like mine, to shoot low poundage. I shoot 60# now.
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 09:28:18 AM
Welcome to TH, from my experience only, in Jan of 2012 I had a complete shoulder replacement (right side), I knew in advance when this was going to take place so I took my Hoyt back to the pro shop, had the poundage turned down from 64# to 50# knowing that when I was able to get back on the range after rehab I wouldn't have to struggle with the draw of the bow. Here I am 5-1/2 years later and it's still at 50#. I find it much more enjoyable to shoot, with the chrony I only lost about 20fps in arrow speed. I normally don't shoot more than 3-6 arrows per practice session but when I do, I don't worry about the draw struggle that I had before. As a hunter, my best effort is always with the first in a session, that's the one that counts when in the field. All shots after that are considered practice to me. Like HM said don't chase the ghost, it will frustrate you beyond belief. Shoot, shoot and shoot some more, if you have the form down, anchor point and release, make necessary sight adjustments to consistently hit your target at multiple yards 20, 30, 40 etc? you will be fine. I hope this gives you a little more insight from my experience, good shooting and happy hunting.
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 10:01:25 AM
Welcome to TH , you got some great bow hunters and shooters on the site, I don't do well as Gutshot can tell you from past Summerblast times  --099-780, but welcome anyways and I hope you can solve your problem  @--0--0101
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 01:56:08 PM
Thundering Lion...welcome to TH we're glad to have you with us. Some good advice here should have you headed in the right of luck and again welcome aboard!
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 03:27:36 PM
Welcome from SW Indiana! Hope you get comfortable with your bow.   @--0--0101
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 06:23:46 PM
One of the things to keep in mind as well is that there might be (probably is) several issues in play, so as you march through the whole process, just because a given change doesn't eliminate the fishtailing doesn't mean it isn't contributing.   HM's comments about not getting overly obsessed with it are appropriate too, the big important priority is putting the arrow where you want it.  For my High Country that I started with, the field points & broadheads were not anywhere near the same zero because of the tuning (or my poor form which looked like a tuning problem).  I was shooting fixed blade broadheads at the time & those certainly made the issue obvious.  My current single cam shoots both the same, but I went ahead and switched to Grim Reaper mechanicals anyway and have been very pleased with their performance.  Good luck, stay in touch!
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 04, 2017, 09:10:26 PM
Welcome to TH, T Lion.  I don't bow hunt now, but that is how I got started hunting for deer, back in 1966.
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 05, 2017, 08:40:51 PM
Welcome to the forum! Can't help you on the technical things but sounds like good advice being given. I have always gone to the local bowshop and never pretended I knew anything except what my problems were in shooting and what my arrows were doing. They always helped me a lot so that would be my recommendation.I am a little older than you and finally switched to a crossbow. Good luck on the set up and keep us posted and send some pictures of your deer!!
Title: Re: Old Newbie here
Post by: [Blocked] on August 07, 2017, 06:48:53 PM
Welcome to the forum! 60 is young as I look back at it --7-8-9

Lots of great folks of all experiences will listen & share their experiences!

We look forward to your participation! @--0--0133